Forum:Cataclysm lore discussion

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Lore

Kicking off this thread to discuss the newly revealed lore about the worgen, goblins and Deathwing :) What do you think?

Personally, I think they've done a pretty good job, and it's starting to tie in a lot more of the lore originally revealed in the RPG books. Kirkburn  talk  contr 17:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems the Holy Light comes from the sun, like regular light. Malykriss looks done and operational (Death Star joke coming?). Somehow the Lich King has a huge forge under the glacier, but it does not melt.

The Elemental Plane(s) are not so much in the Twisting Nether anymore, and the way they look like they are connected to Azeroth makes me think they never were. That or they were really shoved. A panel said Deathwing brought them 'up or down', which does not really fit the inside-out planet or half-planet thing. Deephome is now described as Deathwing's domain. Is it where he was under Grim Batol, or another cavern? If it was where he was in Night of the Dragon, then that supports the 'Deephome was under Azeroth' theory. Also, what happened to Therazane? Defeated? Dethroned? ...Seduced? From Sintharia we know the effects of being humped my molten things... Can a rock stand it?

If Uldum is in Egyptian style and full of hexagonal hallways, what does that make Ahn'Qiraj? If the titans built Ahn'Qiraj (which is right next door to Uldum), and the Old Gods took it, then that explains why a constantly inhabited city is in ruins. Also the Tol'vir are stone cats, and the Anubisaths are stone dogs. Connection?--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 21:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems rather likely. Did you notice the scarabs on the walls in the Uldum concept art? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I did, but I forgot about them.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 21:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I have one thing to say about the new Blizz lore... HOLY COW!!! XD Max Krist (talk) 05:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the Tauren's new classes, quite literally. While some of the new lore looks better planned than some of the earlier changes, I can't help but feel that some of the changes feel rushed. It also reeks of them giving in to fans- Worgen, goblins, and Garrosh becoming so important seem like things that were pushed for more from without than within. Also, revealing Deathwing's new MASSIVE EVIL suddenly makes me totally uninterested in whatever's going to happen at Icecrown in a few months. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Worgen

I feel they are heavily retconning the Worgen, this upsets me to no end, I really don't favor the idea of them being some experiment gone awry from a Purple People druidic cult. I think enough of the lore is dedicated to the purple people, it's really unnecessary to destroy an entire racial history that is heavily established in order to give them more. Revrant (talk) 01:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The worgen backstory seems to have been taken entirely from somebody's pre-BC fanfic. Moreover, they seem to have been pretty randomly thrown in without any real connection to other events. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

You mean their retconned backstory in relation to Cataclysm? If so I would have to agree, don't get me wrong, I love Worgen, and I love the new Goblin models that are true to the lore and art, but they do seem kind of thrown in there. The lore side of things really confuses me, because Worgen can't become humans, only the experiment by Arugal resulted in that, and it's not a matter of will, so how did Gilneas, totally cut off from the world, manage it? Revrant (talk) 02:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree about the worgen (my word was "contrived"), think draenei should get druid (they're literally the only race currently not slated to get a new class, it wouldn't be that hard to explain off, and the feral forms would be epic) and think that the worgen models look like schipperkes.  I'm not too fond of goblins, either.
Farseer Lolotea • talk • contrib 06:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Contrived is a good word for the retcon, I hope they shape it more as time goes on, as is it's rather terrible nonsense. I care very little about Draenei outside of lore, since they were so warped by the "art" direction of the game, but indeed it could be. Schipperke, if a schipperke was the size of a Tauren perhaps, ;) but I do some some resemblance, I'm hoping against hope the other races get a reskin and texture reworking to better reflect the art and lore, honestly. I love the new goblins, who look like they should, but I wasn't a fan of the green gnomes- sorry, goblins, from before. Revrant (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Now, see, I like draenei; they're tied with trolls as my favorites (yeah, it's all about the Tall Blues for me)...and, in my opinion, all of the in-game models leave something to be desired. I also tend to call goblins "green gnomes," and suspect that they'll be the new race of choice for deliberately irritating players. And I thought that worgen were only about orc- or draenei-sized (I'd heard that Alliance races have a maximum height limit due to doorways, although that could certainly get changed in Cata).
Farseer Lolotea • talk • contrib 09:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I just wish they, and oddly enough the trolls now that you mention them, reflected the art and lore anatomically, they took a lot of sexist, creative license with that via every race but the Forsaken. After looking over some more footage, I guess they are Draenei sized, but slimmer with squarer shoulders. I doubt any will surpass the Gnomes as irritating, part of what makes them so irritating is their bizarre anatomy and "cuteness", I've always found Goblins to be much more endearing. Revrant (talk) 10:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that the Worgen's origins are pretty much from some one's pre-BC fanfic, the same could be said for Muradin living (One of my successful wild mass guesses) since that was predicted pre-BC --The last Alterac (talk) 07:06, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

What really bothers me about Worgen lore is that the villain gets to become the hero in Cataclysm. One of my ideas was to include the Worgen as a vile force infesting Gilneas, much like the Plague of Undeath in Lordaeron. They would fight for their lives inside the walls of Gilneas, and adventurers would come to help them in a leveling area, then have to move on. Perhaps a raid or a dungeon branch, for example the ruling palace of Gilneas infested by worgen and its many wings, that would mark the final defeat of the worgen on Gilneas, and it could advance to discovering their origins. But this, the worgen becoming Alliance-friendly and also goddamn druids with all of the boring Kaldorei lore... well, congratulations, another lore mess-up. --Plaguekiller (talk) 00:49, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Ysera

With Deathwing being the primary antagonist of this expansion pack, what do people think about Ysear coming out as a more relevant character in this expansion? I'm more with the people that say there should be an expansion for the Emerald Dream (even though I don't roll any druids of my own), but with the sleeping druids coming back to help defend Azeroth, will this mean that we may be able to enter, in some form, the Emerald Dream more than we have in the past (the few quests set in Moonglade)? What are peoples views here? Del-phoenix (talk) 08:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt we will see anything with her with this expansion or much more about the Emerald Dream than we have in the past. I honestly believe we will be killing a Nightmare Corrupted Ysera in the future. Leviathon (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

If there is an Emerald Dream expansion, it would most likely involve us entering it. However there's still no real knowledge how a non-druid would enter unless those portals are the way. Which still seems to conflict with entering it since druids can only do so through a dream state, not physically. Hard to say. And Ysera being corrupted is highly unlikely.

She resides in "The Eye of Ysera" which is an area of the Dream that moves constantly and only she resides there. It's uncorrupted and nearly impossible to entre. But it still is possible for Ysera to be corrupted. I'd hate to see that. Her appearing in Cataclysm is probably a no-no.

Her generic model appearance in WotLK wasn't actually her; just more of an apparition. Similar to Nozdormu. I definitely see more action from the Wyrmrest Accord, though. Possibly a second, newer faction like the Cenarion Circle to the Expedition and Argent Dawn to the Argent Crusade. Netherwings would be nice to hear from again.

They definitely have a bone to pick with the one who left them on the shattered world as a bizarre, unknown subspecies of dragon and then his past allies, the Dragonmaw, began to enslave them and Deathwing's ex-consort, Sinestra, used them in her experiments to make the Nether dragon rip off race, the Twilights. Who in my opinion are just as bad as the Twilight series. I would also like to see more news on the Infinite Dragonflight. If they are corrupt Bronze Dragons, it would seem as if all dragons are destined to end somehow. Reds are next. Blacks were the first to go bad; blues after; greens are being changed by the Nightmare; and now Bronzes seems to becoming something extremely horrid.

Another thing is that Malygos was never determined dead. So he could make some alarming reappearance and the blues may be defending Azeroth once again. So many possibilities with the expansion. Who knows what will happen? Mykael Mourningsun (talk) 05:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ysera being corrupted being highly unlikely is ignoring the quest in Dragonblight that seems to imply she has succumbed to the Nightmare. We don't know the situation in the Emerald Dream so it is very possible that the Eye has been attacked by the force causing the Nightmare. Directly from the quest: "Ysera sleeps in the Emerald Dream, watching over both the Dream and Azeroth. But a horrible nightmare has taken hold in the Dream, and now I fear that Ysera is being affected by it." Leviathon (talk) 20:18, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting to think we are heading to the replacement of the older Dragon Aspects by some new blood. Maybe is just me, but I think Blizzard could want to transform some more "familiar" characters into the natural replacements for older Aspects that have gone insane / evil: Chromie replacing a Nozdormu that has become the leader of the Infinites, Tyri or Kalec becoming a new Aspect of Magic with the Nethers under their command, and so. Anyway, Cataclysm is the opportunity to change everything they want. Why replacing old Aspects? Maybe because not everyone knows the all the former except for referencies and the ocasional raid boss, but all the players have had some contact with important members of each Dragonflight.--Morgaur (talk) 15:45, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that Med'an and the Council of Tirisfal are the new 'Aspect of Magic'. Metzen hinted at it in what I think was a BlizzCast.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 20:08, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so sure... The original Council of Tirisfal had an entirely different purpose and didn't really overlap with Malygos' domain at all. I have little reason to doubt that the new Council will be any different. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Goblins

What will happen to the Goblins that are neutral such as those affiliated with the Steamwheedle Cartel? Will they remain neutral or join the Horde like the goblins forced off of Kezan?AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 02:52, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

They're remaining neutral. It's only that one small faction of goblins that joined the Horde. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:42, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of Goblins, any guesses on possible mounts? More importantly, any fears that they'll be something totally stupid? --Signoftheend (talk) 02:56, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

BlizzCon showed a go-cart/car as a possible one.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 03:24, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Uldum, Ahn'Qiraj, and the Council of Tirisfal

The new Uldum zone is quite close to Ahn'Qiraj. I think it would be interesting if a C'thun-infused Cho'gall would make an appearance as the main antagonist of the zone. This could even lead to several as yet unseen Warcraft Comic characters appear to fight the new Cho'gall. New Council of Tirisfal perhaps?AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 12:23, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Unless he's killed within the comic itself, which seems entirely likely to me. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:53, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

With such drastic geographic changes to old world Azeroth, will any of the old quests be redesigned? For example, vehicle mechanics and phashing could be reintroduced.AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 21:12, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

They're redesigning the world, it would be silly to believe the quests will not change as well. And they already said phasing will become a part of the old world. User:Coobra/Sig4 21:58, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Basically the Cataclysm serves to get vanilla up to speed. All that Blizzard has learned, all the new technologies, all of it, is comming to the Old World so that the game feels more unified. gadget (talk) 03:46, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

The one thing I'd like to see them do is change up the start up for the old races as they have done for the DK and will do for the worgen and goblins. Give more of an introduction and like BEs and Draenei show off and explain the racials for the old races as well, now that they have a chance to make those changes. User:Coobra/Sig4 05:47, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that would be awesome. I also expect a more of a progressing world with a lot of phasing. gadget (talk) 08:53, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I found an interesting little tidbit in Lands of Mystery that seems to connect the Titans and Qiraji (beyond hating each other) long before Uldum was announced, and its concept art shown. J.D. Collie says:

"...until I found the first Crystal Pylon. Located in the east, guarded by the pterrodax, this humming pillar holds the same sort of runes found on the Stone Guardians as well as the hovering pylons that guard the entrance to the crater."

The 'pylons' in Thistleshrub Valley are the same ones that flank the gates of AQ. RPG mistake, or has Blizzard had this idea from the start?--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 19:54, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

I think it's refering to the large crystal pylons in Un'goro, y'know the ones that are miniature versions of the ones in sholazar basin? And the runes are refering to the elite golems that patrol everywhere, nothing to do with the qiraji. Twas Brillig (talk) 12:40, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

None of the three pylons in Un'goro hover. The qiraji ones do.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 21:14, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Well since Cho'gall has survivived the comic series, it only makes since to reopen the discussion of his and the Council of Tirisfal's appearance in Cataclysm and the Uldum zone.AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 02:47, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Tauren Paladins

Tauren Paladin. While we're at it, let's have draenei rogues and gnome hunters. If this continues I'm going to d&d and swtor. BobNamataki (talk) 21:58, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I thought it showed up earlier on this forum, but I guess not. See sunwalker. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:16, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing in the entirety of the lore that suggests Tauren cannot be Paladins, absolutely nothing, anyone can be a Paladin, even the Undead in a unique case have managed it. I'm perturbed by why I see so many people so very insistent that Tauren can't be Paladins while we have Undead throwing around nature magic, befriending living beasts, and using the Hunter's variation of Shamanism, all things that lore says they cannot do. Revrant (talk) 11:41, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Of all the new lore changes, this one doesn't seem that bad. They figure the night elves rely heavily on the moon, why don't they provide balance by chanelling the sun?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

The Tauren also channel the moon as the other eye of the Earthmother, that seems to be what the discussion on Thunder Bluff hints at. I'm most baffled by Undead Hunters, who outwardly contradict everything lore has taught us regarding nature magic, I can only hope this relates to the (assumed)death of the Lich King. Revrant (talk) 08:37, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

It seems the lore fits, but that is not going to stop the "holy cow" jokes. Now, regarding undead hunters. Two words: Nathanos Blightcaller. --Joshmaul (talk) 09:31, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

I don't see much of a problem with Undead hunters if Human ones existed - especially in Lordaeron, close to Quel'Thalas (like Josh pointed out, see Nathanos) And nature spells? Only game mechanic, it doesn't take magic or even a closeness to nature to apply poison to your arrows (see rogues, who do the same to their melee weapons) or to set up fire traps - of course, frost and snake traps are a stretch, though rather technology/tinkering than real magic. Reviving your pet can be simplified to tending to its wounds. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 10:41, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

And come Cataclysm, hunter's won't be using magic (mana) anyway... they're switching to an "energy" system. User:Coobra/Sig4 05:50, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Nathanos is a Dark Ranger, not a Hunter, Hunters use Shamanism, it's right there on their WoWWiki page, so I'm sorry, Nathanyel, but that, to a loremaster, is close to trolling. I could say the same to a Druid, or a Paladin regarding the Holy Light, and they would laugh in my face, "Perhaps your Seal of Command is just you throwing a lit up hammer", and I would be mocked.

Silliness completely aside, Coobra, it's an in-game energy system, the lore doesn't apply to it, it doesn't make notice of any of those systems barring mana and rune power and runes, and even then, the latter two isn't common at all. So trolling in the air, how does an Undead elf or human use Nature magic? Seriously, let's try and put up some plausible explanations. Revrant (talk) 06:54, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

The source book never says they use Shamanism, it says they call upon the spirits of the land/air/water/fire to aid them in their hunts and tasks... that same book also says Hunters are a Horde only class. So its very much outdated info. The more up-to-date source book claims nothing of the such... infact barely any of the "spells" listed were repeated in the updated source book. User:Coobra/Sig4 07:28, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

lol, trolling? someone is taking this all too seriously, this is the forums after all, not the talk pages. As for the hunters, the Forsaken hunters WILL be Dark Rangers, the animal will just be the "in-game mechanics" as you put it, i am positive that within the lore and there quests, they will be Dark Rangers, hence the reason Blizz implemented some to walk around Undercity in 3.3 as for humans? lol They are humans ffs, they can do anything :P  Max Krist (talk contribs) 08:57, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Dismissing the entirety of the information because of one part that has become outdated(largely due to game design) is a rather silly stance to take, and that is exactly what Shamanism...is, elemental magic, it even makes the point of likening them to Shaman. Max, they're providing lore for everything else, I somehow doubt they'd just dismiss it as saying "o ya, but they arnt using nature magic, and the pets arnt really there". Revrant (talk) 12:11, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Coobra already said it, but let's phrase it differently, no one needs shamanism or other magic to pick up a (x)bow/gun and shoot it. Even taming a beast is possible without magic, the 10 second cast ingame is just a shortening of the months/years it'd actually take. Not to say that mild magic cannot be involved, it sure helps, esp. shaman/nature magic, but I'd say other types of magic would work in some way, too. And yes, "paladins" don't need to use holy magic (but of course another type of magic) to be called that ingame, see Sunwalkers. I know this was already mentioned, but let's get back on topic. People need to understand that the WoW classes are rather "templates", so they don't have to model every possible class. This is also why we won't see e.g. demon hunters, rangers, necromants or blademasters. For mages and warriors, it's easy to RP them as arcanists, pyromants, evokers or any generic magic user, slash armsman, city guard, blademaster, shield-bearer. For druids, shamans, priests and paladins, it might be harder to grasp, since these were given rather specific implementations in the RTS games, druids as Elune-worshipping shapeshifters, shamans as elementalists who converse with the spirits of the elements and the ancestors, and priests and paladins as the literal holy version, which is represented by the Humans (and later Dwarves and High/Blood Elves) Particularly paladins were an explicit extension of priesthood. But to not get this text get too long, let's look at the Troll witch doctor, which, aside from witch doctor NPCs, can be roleplayed by both Troll shamans and priests, or the other way around, these two classes (for Trolls) are specializations of the witch doctor class, similar to how priests and paladins are connected for Humans. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 10:38, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Strange, I could swear I've seen this argument somewhere before, and it was looped around for thirty some pages on the forum in question with no end in sight. Essentially it came to using game mechanics to explain away lore and lore to explain away game mechanics in a not-so-merry-go-round capable of shaming the Columbia Carousel. I do grasp what you're getting at just fine, and none of that, in any sense or fashion, has anything to do with your original post, it was the first line of this combined with that post that was so ridiculous. Suggesting Hunters do not use nature magic, specifically what is indicated to be shamanism or merely elemental magic(and Druidism from Rangers, which the game calls Hunters), is just ridiculous.

I realize it's tempting to just say "Blizzard will retcon it", but let's try not to be pessimists here, they've shown us they intend to have lore explanations for the others thus far, there's no reason to think they'd demean the "template" into "Well Hunters don't use any form of magic, they just poison their bows and carry around 100 pounds of complicated mechanical parts for traps and a Gnomish Army Knife for when their pet dies!", I think that's ludicrous. Revrant (talk) 12:11, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'm just saying not all hunters have to use magic, not all characters of the hunter class are the same. Or in general, one example of a hunter/paladin/whatever class doesn't prohibit another example, which is different, but close enough to be classified under the same header, when you only have 10 headers.

100 pounds... nothing compared to the other stuff player characters carry around in their bags, but hey, maybe my Closet Gnome uses magic. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 14:08, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the ones we play in the game do, of course, but for instance the Alliance Marksmen during the Gunship fight, technically "Hunters" by the game's definition, use no such magic. Indeed the article itself separates the class from what could be called a magic-less profession, Hemet is a prime example, along with all of his underlings, they are "hunters" and identify as such, though few of them use magic.

Jolly good show, jolly good. Revrant (talk) 15:15, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

I cannot see what is the sense in the undead hunter argument. I agree with Nathanyel on most of his parts of the argument. The hunter class is just a gameplay mechanic. Some hunters, like Tauren, Night Elf, Orc, Troll and Draenei can slip in some Shaman/Nature magic (according to lore) to revive their pets and all of the other stuff. But to think about it, Blood Elves don't have the ability for nature magic, but their "ranger" prestige class pretty much shapes them as hunters. You cannot blame them. They can Arcane Shot, and judging on Thalassian powers in arcane, are its masters, and they can bow-sling and do all of the shots and equip poison to their shots as well (see Sylvanas and how she immobilized Arthas from moving to his ship, in a campaign in WC3). To make a hero class or a brand new class just for blood elves that dismisses the nature spells and adds a few arcane and immobilization stuff in, would open a door of unwanted numbers of new classes for Blizzard. Let's add demon hunters, keepers of the grove, necromancers and all of the mess into WoW. I mean, then it'd equalize the rank of Ranger. And for other hunter classes, let's take dwarves for example, they aren't really fond of Shaman magic or frequent practicers of its powers (until the Cataclysm event, which they'll probably learn to adhere it for reasons concerning the Mystery of the Makers and how the Old Gods provide shaman magic, that I don't have time to explain), and they still can be considered able to be hunters. I also loved that humans would be hunters, because it fits a human to be anything. Even if they introduce Human Shamans or Druids in the future, guess what, we have them in real life. Humans can master everything, and it is presented in lore as well. A human, if he wants to, can connect deeply with the wilds as much as a Night Elf or Tauren can do. So, Undead Hunters, who are labeled as Dark Rangers in the lore, can still be hunters. They might not be able to use Revive Pet and other few natural spells, but Blizzard doesn't want to fill its head with a new race-specific hero class. I think, if a prestige class can fulfill 80% or 70% of a class (or class combination), and has those few points that will not really affect the lore that much, it shouldn't be introduced.

To not get off topic much on the Undead Hunters, Tauren Paladins as Sunwalkers seem fair enough. We had Night Elves use Holy magic in the name of Elune and the "moon" and no one said much stuff about it like we have the "holy cow" argument here. Yes, I know it'll become a running gag like slackadin and retardin, but hey, paladins can take jokes. Everyone jokes about paladins. Even Nyhm. Holy cow to you all. --Plaguekiller (talk) 00:43, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm growing tired of the use of game mechanics in this discussion, this is supposed to be a lore forum. I don't "argue" that, the lore states it quite clearly, and Elven rangers, get this, they're elves, and they even use some Druidism, so where the heck do you even get that from? Of course elves can use nature magic, have you been in the Botanica? I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously while you cling to this bizarre idea that Elves can't use nature magic, they have for thousands of years, they bloody came from Night Elves, why wouldn't they? No, they are not labeled Dark Rangers in lore, there is no lore regarding Undead Hunters yet, and they have many spells that are bound in nature magic, not just "a few", don't belittle it to make your point.

I'm starting to get a headache, I expected intelligent lore discussion, not nonsense dismissals with no reasoning behind them, where's the Lore forum? I stumbled into the wrong place, apparently. Revrant (talk) 06:48, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

lol umadbro? People get too into the lore, the fact is, Blizzard made a mistake by making hunters use magic, from both a lore and a game mechanics point of view, thats why they are changing it. Not all hunters use magic, sure some do like the elves, but others don't like humans/dwarves/forsaken, things change, it's Blizz's game, they can do what they want with it. BTW, this section was for Tauren Palladins :P  Max Krist (talk contribs) 06:56, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

lol utrollingbro? Yeah, thanks for the useless post "they can do whatever they want lol", go back to the WoW forums, if you please. I did derail it, though truth be told it wasn't valid to begin with, there was no reason a Tauren couldn't be a Paladin, people just don't like change. What I don't like is change without explanation, which I hope isn't the case, though intelligent discussion on it is as rare as any Spirit Beast so far. Revrant (talk) 07:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

• sigh* it hasn't even been released yet, it was just shown as an upcoming feature and your complaining about the lack of current lore to support this new feature? How about you wait until the game comes out and you do all those lore filled quests before saying there is no explanation  Max Krist (talk contribs) 07:44, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Because there's already lore regarding two of the others, griefer? Revrant (talk) 08:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just because Tauren and Night Elf hunters (like most members of their races) are not unfamiliar to nature magic, be it druidism or shamanism, does not imply that the "hunter" class is entirely reliant on nature magic. For Orc, Troll and Blond Elf hunters, there may be some "magic" involved as well, but to a very lesser extent, and more just a personal "bond" with nature per se, without supernatural aspects, much like RL people close to nature, if you excuse the comparison. Especially for BEs, as they don't really have much of an overall connection with nature anymore, most focus on the Arcane (or in newer days, the Light)

And Draenei and Dwarf hunters? Sure, there are Draenei shamans, though very recent, we can't assume the same for hunters, and the Wildhammer, but until Cataclysm, Dwarf hunters would generally be Bronzebeards, without an apparent connection to "nature magic". It may be a common thing, but not a prerequisite to become a "hunter". Quotes to hint at my previous mention of "template classes". ~ Nathanyel (talk) 10:36, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Orcs were devoted Shaman, Thrall is, after all, labeled as the world's most powerful Shaman, Trolls were as well, and Witch doctors, voodoo is nature magic and shadow magic. Blood Elves are a good example, even then Blood Elves have long had their Rangers, the Elven Rangers have always used nature magic, the lore makes it out to be more druidic than shamanistic, which would tie in well with their Night Elven heritage.

Draenei, it's hard to use them, because they're also Shaman, but they weren't until Draenor/Outland, where a certain person learned from the elements, so they have a very short history with Shamanism, and an unknown history as Hunters. Dwarves on the other hand have had Hunters of quite a few varieties for ages, from Marksmanship Hunters(the most common) to ones more oriented toward Survival and sporting pets. I appreciate at least some intelligent discourse, outright dismissal of a massive incongruity was a little more than annoying, to be sure. Revrant (talk) 19:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Methinks Blizzard did it just so they could say, "Ret bull gives you wings!" But I don't see why so many people think this is a retconning. There's nothing in lore that states that tauren are incapable of becoming a paladin. That said, it seems a bit odd. But I welcome it. I grow tired of paladins of the Horde complaining about being a blood elf, followed by an uneducated assumption about the sexual orientation of their character's race. Sebreth (T.C) 09:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ha, perhaps, and it appears Blizzard is tying it into their lore of the Earthmother, I even suspect the restored Sunwell and the restored Blood Elves will play a significant part in them coming to integrate the sun, An'she, the Earthmother's eye, into their theology. I grow tired of Blood Elf Paladins, to be sure, their players create an outwardly disliked stereotype on my server, a haughty selfish player that thinks themselves superior. Hopefully with another race in the mix it will come out to be even as it is on the other side, anyone can be a douchebag regardless of class. Revrant (talk) 19:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)